sentient heartless?

[arcaina200]

now, for some reason, Ansem, Xehanort's heartless, was an intelligent heartless and had human form. I have no idea how this could happen, since even Sora turned into a heartless at one point, and he took a regular heartless form. Do you think there will be more heartless like Ansem in the third game?

[Key of Valor]

I think it's possible that Ansem SoD as a special heartless will be featured again in KH3. I wouldn't be surprised even if Ven and/or Vanitas have special heartless in KH3 as well, but that's going into the whole issue of how the BBS characters are connected to KH3. We don't really know though why Xehanort's Heartless was so unique, so it's very possible that some other individuals were able to achieve the same (or similar) thing when their hearts left their vessels.

I personally believe though that Xehanort was able to produce a special heartless of unique qualities because Xehanort may have had a practically empty heart.

[DarkSoldier]

Originally Posted by Key of Valor

I personally believe though that Xehanort was able to produce a special heartless of unique qualities because Xehanort may have had a practically empty heart.

The problem I see with the whole "empty heart" situation is how it can easily be consumed by darkness thus just another normal shadow. Since a heartless is darkness from people's heart Xehanort should have just been a normal heartless if we're assuming he has an empty heart. An empty heart has nothing but darkness spreads rapidly. As Xehanort's heartless has stated, "darkness grows, consumes it, just as its nature"

If Xehanort had an empty heart then it would be so simple for darkness to overrun that heart because an empty heart would be vulnerable due to nothing surrounding or "protecting" it so Xehanort would be a normal heartless; a shadow nonetheless.

I usually just went with the idea because Xehanort willingly wanted to cast off his own body and got his cohorts to lose it in the process but Sora made me think otherwise as he also willingly gave up his heart to save Kairi and he was a measly shadow. There are assumptions though that Xehanort probably had the most darkness in his heart thus the most strongest of them all keeping his memories while Sora was a weak heartless because he rarely had any darkness in his heart so he was a shadow.

[Key of Valor]

Originally Posted by DarkSoldier

The problem I see with the whole "empty heart" situation is how it can easily be consumed by darkness thus just another normal shadow. Since a heartless is darkness from people's heart Xehanort should have just been a normal heartless if we're assuming he has an empty heart. An empty heart has nothing but darkness spreads rapidly. As Xehanort's heartless has stated, "darkness grows, consumes it, just as its nature"

Darkness is of a similar nature of fire though. It begins with a small spark, and if allowed to burn it will grow and spread, becoming a dangerous and destructive force.

However, darkness, like fire, needs to be fed in order to grow. Fire needs fuel, and so does darkness. Darkness thrives off dark emotions, such as the feeling of rage, the feeling hatred, the feeling of lust, the feeling of envy, the feelings of all these and more.

However, an empty heart is incapable of feeling so it is unable to fuel any such darkness. The absence of light doesn't necessarily need to be the presence of darkness.

My studies of certain cultural concepts has directed me to some interesting material that discusses the nature of emptiness. The phenomena of emptiness is one's self is considered the ultimate state of self by certain cultures. It is said to be the means in which one becomes free from both pleasure and pain, and allows one to walk a safe path through life.

As depicted in the text below though, the absence of light doesn't need to be the presence of darkness:

Where neither water nor yet earth
Nor fire nor air gain a foothold
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light.
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.
When a sage, a brahmin, has come to know this
For himself through his own experience
Then he is freed from form and formlessness
Freed from pleasure and from pain.

Sometimes certain stories draw elements from other cultures. Someone had previously compared Terra, Aqua, and Ven's armors to resembling certain figures in Egyptian Mythology. Terra, Aqua, Ven, and Vanitas' names are based around the Buddhist arrangement of classical elements. The idea of knight-based characters draws from Middle Ages in Europe. Quite possibly Nomura takes the idea of "Emptiness" and expands on it in BBS.

Originally Posted by DarkSoldier

If Xehanort had an empty heart then it would be so simple for darkness to overrun that heart because an empty heart would be vulnerable due to nothing surrounding or "protecting" it so Xehanort would be a normal heartless; a shadow nonetheless.

DiZ told Riku though that empty hearts existed as a state of safety, and could even serve as an eternal state of protection if Riku willed it so. DiZ also mentions how darkness blankets empty hearts, but by that I personally visualize darkness being stopped at the hearts gate. Darkness is allowed to exist around an empty heart but rarely within it. And even if an empty did possess traces of darkness, the lack of emotions to feed off of would make the darkness incapable of growing or posing a threat anyway. Therefore, the interior of the heart that shelters the "sense of self" would remain quite safe. If the sense of self is protected from being overwhelmed by darkness though, then that might explain why Xehanort's heart retained its intelligence even after becoming a special heartless.

Originally Posted by DarkSoldier

I usually just went with the idea because Xehanort willingly wanted to cast off his own body and got his cohorts to lose it in the process but Sora made me think otherwise as he also willingly gave up his heart to save Kairi and he was a measly shadow.

The "willingly became a Heartless" factor could quite possibly play a role in the unique qualities of Xehanort's Heartless. Sure Sora gave up his heart willingly, but his case was for the sake of good intentions even though the lost of Sora's heart was an undesired outcome. Xehanort's heart however openly embraced darkness, and one could argue that his heart in harmony with that darkness didn't affect his sense of self.

Originally Posted by DarkSoldier

There are assumptions though that Xehanort probably had the most darkness in his heart thus the most strongest of them all keeping his memories while Sora was a weak heartless because he rarely had any darkness in his heart so he was a shadow.

This is quite possible as well. In fact, if the immensity of darkness had infused into the heart's very existence, then the change from complete being with dark infused heart to darkness being of dark consumed heart could have been so minimal that Xehanort's sense of self, already infused with the darkness, would not be affected by the heartless transformation.

However, one concern I have with the claim of Xehanort's having more darkness than just about anyone is this: If the amount of darkness determines size and strength of a Heartless' physical form, then why did Xehanort' Heartless not only lack a suitable physical form, but also became dependent on the obtainment of someone's physical form and darkness?

[DarkSoldier]

Originally Posted by Key of Valor

However, darkness, like fire, needs to be fed in order to grow. Fire needs fuel, and so does darkness. Darkness thrives off dark emotions, such as the feeling of rage, the feeling hatred, the feeling of lust, the feeling of envy, the feelings of all these and more.

Not necessarily. Darkness can be spread off either way. If a heart's empty and consists of no light and no darkness (which isn't possible anyway) darkness would consume the light. There's reasons why Sora hasn't turned into a heartless yet (aside from when he willingly gave up his heart). His light protects him. He has more light than darkness but this does not apply to Xehanort. If we are assuming Xehanort has an empty heart which if your referring to if it has both little light and darkness then the heart would still be overrun by darkness due to small light in that heart.

Yen Sid explained that there's no way to defeat the heartless because everyone has darkness in their heart (aside from the POH) and the only way to get rid of them if all people have light in their heart which is impossible.

Originally Posted by Key of Valor

However, an empty heart is incapable of feeling so it is unable to fuel any such darkness. The absence of light doesn't necessarily need to be the presence of darkness.

Darkness spreads everywhere no matter what the circumstances are; whether its feeding off on rage, envy, or so. You need something in order to protect you from the darkness consuming your entire heart which is light. Sora's light is so strong it feds off the little darkness he has in his heart. If there's an empty heart its easily consumed either way because of small light to not protect the darkness from Xehanort's heart.

[Sora09]

Originally Posted by arcaina200

now, for some reason, Ansem, Xehanort's heartless, was an intelligent heartless and had human form. I have no idea how this could happen, since even Sora turned into a heartless at one point, and he took a regular heartless form. Do you think there will be more heartless like Ansem in the third game?

YES!!!!! alot and what third game 359/2 or birth by sleep?

[Key of Valor]

Originally Posted by DarkSoldier

Not necessarily. Darkness can be spread off either way. If a heart's empty and consists of no light and no darkness (which isn't possible anyway) darkness would consume the light.

Well I know there are reasons to believe that empty hearts do not exist. The basis for such a belief seems to be the basic concept of "the absence of light must be darkness". Such an idea seems to be supported by what we can easily observe in this world. The concept itself is possible, logical, and may very well prove to be true.

However, in the KH Series, it isn't a confirmed rule as of yet, even if the KH Universe does apply by that law. As of right now though, it's left up for debate, and there are reasons supporting both sides of the argument.

Personally I believe empty hearts do exist primarily because of Riku's ordeal in Castle Oblivion. Specifically, the void Riku awoke in and the words DiZ spoke to him throughout Castle Oblivion is the key support for the idea of the empty heart. However, I acknowledge that the visual could be misleading and the words could be false. But these are just the reasons I have for believing that empty hearts exist, even though such an idea can't be conclusively proven.

Originally Posted by DarkSoldier

There's reasons why Sora hasn't turned into a heartless yet (aside from when he willingly gave up his heart). His light protects him.

Indeed, Sora's strong light is the basis for why his heart doesn't give into the darkness. It doesn't necessarily mean though that hearts with little light are doomed to be consumed by darkness. Riku's heart survived his close encounter with an empty state of heart.

Originally Posted by DarkSoldier

Yen Sid explained that there's no way to defeat the heartless because everyone has darkness in their heart (aside from the POH) and the only way to get rid of them if all people have light in their heart which is impossible.

Actually, Yensid said it would be difficult to get rid of them, but he didn't say it was impossible.

Interestingly enough, the idea Goofy presents is the theory that if hearts were full of light, then there would be no darkness. And then there is darkness which seems to pursue the destruction of all light. However, neither darkness nor light can destroy each other. As Mickey stated in KH2, you can't have one without the other. Even more interesting though, that rule in itself doesn't imply that light and darkness always compose an existence. All it states is that so long as one exists, so will the other. Therefore, to get rid of all light one must get rid of all darkness, and to get rid of all darkness one must get rid of all light. And that in itself is the basis for the concept of achieving "emptiness", the state that ends the heart's eternal struggle between light and dark.

Originally Posted by DarkSoldier

Darkness spreads everywhere no matter what the circumstances are; whether its feeding off on rage, envy, or so. You need something in order to protect you from the darkness consuming your entire heart which is light. Sora's light is so strong it feds off the little darkness he has in his heart. If there's an empty heart its easily consumed either way because of small light to not protect the darkness from Xehanort's heart.

I understand that you have different views about the nature of darkness. Ultimately, it hasn't been confirmed whether or not darkness does rely on negative emotions to grow. There's no conclusive evidence supporting either view. Personally I believe darkness relies on negative emotions to grow, but I have no proof for that claim, so other possibilities still exist.

[lionsbarrage]

There is soo much to really qoute and comment on, but i wont. Everything thats been said i would just said the same.

I too believe there is no such thing as an empty heart, light and darkness is what makes up the world and everyone in it it seems, hearts born from either or. The fact theres a light that never goes out, even if its over run by darkness, its never fully extinguished. When i see Ansem say those things to Riku in CO, i feel its more of a personal or object point of view. Throwing out his friends, villans turning his back on light and darkness, but all along Xehanort was in his heart anyways. thats why i feel no heart is empty, but the only time it couldnt be acted upon or was no struglle is the state of sleep, from where he awoke, to the point where Namine offered to seal the darkness away, making RIku sleep again.

However, one concern I have with the claim of Xehanort's having more darkness than just about anyone is this: If the amount of darkness determines size and strength of a Heartless' physical form, then why did Xehanort' Heartless not only lack a suitable physical form, but also became dependent on the obtainment of someone's physical form and darkness?

strength isnt determined by brute force alone. By this i mean other heartless also lacked a physical form, like the description of phantom. Yet this was also a powerful heartless nonetheless. Keeping his mind intact was most important. and prolly him possesing a physical form was his downfall, but still with his powers and mind he was able to form one of his choosing, instead of being given one.

[Key of Valor]

Originally Posted by lionsbarrage

I too believe there is no such thing as an empty heart, light and darkness is what makes up the world and everyone in it it seems, hearts born from either or. The fact theres a light that never goes out, even if its over run by darkness, its never fully extinguished. When i see Ansem say those things to Riku in CO, i feel its more of a personal or object point of view. Throwing out his friends, villans turning his back on light and darkness, but all along Xehanort was in his heart anyways. thats why i feel no heart is empty, but the only time it couldnt be acted upon or was no struglle is the state of sleep, from where he awoke, to the point where Namine offered to seal the darkness away, making RIku sleep again.

Well by empty heart, I mean practically empty heart. I strongly believe that Sora was right when he said there is a light in hearts that cannot be extinguished. (On another note, the word one culture uses to describe the absolute state of emptiness also translates into "extinguishing" so I'm inclined to believe that true emptiness can't be achieved in the KH Series)

As for what Ansem described to Riku, it's the same as anything Ansem says. It could true or it could be false. The void Riku awoke in though seemed to be a symbolic representation of Riku's heart though, and it was indeed empty. Even all of the worlds from Riku's memories were empty. I suppose it's possible though that Ansem prepared these illusions to demonstrate a point to Riku.

Ansem the Wise experienced something very similar to what Riku endured in the sense that they both came close losing everything in their heart, and even came close to losing their hearts themselves. Ansem was betrayed by his beloved apprentices and vanished to a realm of nothingness. He lost his home, his friends, his status, and even his own name. Soon his happy memories of the paradise he once knew were lost by his overwhelming anger and hatred towards his apprentices. However, Ansem tried to resist the darkness. He was so focused on revenge though, that he was willing to give up everything in order to achieve it. Because of that, his heart was of neither light nor darkness, and he struggled to retain his existence. Ansem stood at a crossroads, and he had to choose to reside in either the light or the dark. He chose the darkness, and thus chose to accept it. He gained the ability to open corridors of darkness and thus he facilitated his escape.

When Ansem confronted Riku, he treated him harshly because he compared Riku to himself. For Riku was someone who had lost his own self as well, and was on the verge of non-existence if he failed to choose his direction. In that sense, Ansem knew that Riku had to make a choice like he did, and to chose to either walk the path of light or darkness. However, Riku chose neither one. Instead he chose middle path and the road to dawn.

Originally Posted by lionsbarrage

strength isnt determined by brute force alone. By this i mean other heartless also lacked a physical form, like the description of phantom. Yet this was also a powerful heartless nonetheless. Keeping his mind intact was most important. and prolly him possesing a physical form was his downfall, but still with his powers and mind he was able to form one of his choosing, instead of being given one.

Good point. Power can be measured in different ways. Personally I doubt Xehanort's Heartless as a phantom was powerful in terms of combat, but that's just speculation since not much is known about Xehanort's Heartless as a phantom.

[DarkSoldier]

Originally Posted by lionsbarrage

Keeping his mind intact was most important. and prolly him possesing a physical form was his downfall, but still with his powers and mind he was able to form one of his choosing, instead of being given one.

Possessing a "physical form" can't be his downfall. He had to posess Riku's body in order to continue his goals as well as he needed the keyblade for the princesses and Riku was/is a keyblade master who was succumbing to darkness.